Tagged: 2021 Series - Tourist Trophy
December 14, 2020 at 1:22 PM #15815
This is the head thread of the series discussion for 2021 – Goodwood Tourist Trophy
This series will be run from July – Dec 2021 (by default the 2nd Sat of each month; same day as the monthly meeting)
Series Manager: Russell Mill / ChapRacer-65
Rules will be posted on the main page; under “Race Rules” > “2021 Racing Series”
Rules will be similar to those from 2017: Austinslotcarclub.com/2017-racing-series/2017-tourist-trophy/
Questions about the rules will be covered in this forum thread.
** Rules will not be duplicated in this forum thread.
Candidate Cars: see the 2021 rules when posted; see the 2017 as a basic list
This is a “builder” series allowing a wide amount of cosmetic and technical customizations; including 3D chassis and lexan cockpits.
December 18, 2020 at 12:49 PM #15894
Does anyone own a Fly 250LM and a Fly 250 GTO? I would like to get the wheelbase measurement for both cars. Let me know if anyone has either or both of these cars. Thanks
December 22, 2020 at 11:53 AM #15910
Will the Cheetah be allowed since it ran in 1963?
December 22, 2020 at 12:50 PM #15911
I also would be interested in running a Cheetah; I have a Carrera ‘aluminum/chrome’ version. With the OEM chassis it responds well to a 21.5 Slot.IT. The front wheels are independents; but the OEM size makes it a challenge to clear the tires off the track; Plus there is not much room in the chassis to sub with a wider (but smaller diameter) alloy Slot.IT wheel. So – I replaced mine with independent wheels from another Carrera with a smaller diameter.
The body is thick in places, and the chassis is very tight on the inside (limited spots to out ballast). If the Cheetah is allowed I would also prefer that a 3D chassis be allowed for Carrera. MRRC and other brands with challenging chassis.
December 24, 2020 at 10:01 AM #15920
Looking at the rules, is “wheel track” defined here as distance from left wheel center-line to right wheel center-line? Or is it overall width, tire-bulge to tire bulge?
December 24, 2020 at 2:59 PM #15928
I have updated the 2021 Trophy Series rules page, with additions and deletions. The Cheetah will be allowed. Wheel track will not be an issue, being limited by the body width; the same goes for rear tire width. Normally, for 1/1 cars, wheel track is measured by wheel center to wheel center, but, generally, for slot cars, we have defined it as outside tire width to outside tire width.
December 24, 2020 at 5:21 PM #15936
I figured track width was overall width in this case, just wanted to confirm. The F1 proxy is very busy about track width, and it is center-to-center.
About liveries. I think fantasy liveries should be period appropriate. Sorry for not mentioning earlier.
December 24, 2020 at 11:48 PM #15937
I have a Monogram Shelby GT350 that would be a nice car with a 3d chassis. I would need to fix it from its bad and broken front motor chassis one way or another and would like to make it into the race.
December 25, 2020 at 12:20 AM #15938
The Shelby Mustangs were 1965 cars. I think Falcons may have run but I don’t know of any 1/32 sources.
December 30, 2020 at 9:18 PM #15966
I have been reading the online descriptions of the 1960-1964 TT races and it shows that ’63 was the last year the race was similar to our proposed cars, but 1964 had sports racers like Lotus and Elva plus small displacement cars. Should we drop back to 1963 as the cutoff or just limit the 1964 cars to the ones listed as GT over 2 liters? I also noticed the 289 Cobra roadsters were in the race but we have spec’d coup or hard top.
December 31, 2020 at 11:55 AM #15969
In deciding on what slot cars should be eligible for a series, and matching them to historically correct 1:1 races, there are several factors involved. What models are actually available as kits or slot cars, how available and how expensive are they, how difficult to build, and how competitive will they be, are all factors to consider. If possible, we would want to avoid a series where one or two cars were clearly faster than the rest. Limiting the cars to 1963 would eliminate a number of cars, including the Ferrari GTO64, the Ferrari 250 LM, the Porsche 904, and the Cobra Daytona.
A number of the eligible cars are only available as resin kits, primarily MMK, PSK, and GP Miniatures, many of which are difficult and expensive to get. The resin cars are heavier and are typically set up for MRRC/PCS type adjustable chassis, although there may be some 3D chassis available. I think it would be difficult to make any of these cars competitive, and I would fear that the series would end up comprising mainly GTOs and XKEs. I would love to have a series that would have Lister Jaguar coupes, Aston Martin Project 214s, Bizzarrinis, and Ferrari SWBs, but I don’t think that would happen. Perhaps, a best livery/build award would encourage members to race some of these resin cars.
Opening up the slot series to 1964 includes more regular (plastic) slot car models that have a realistic chance of being competitive. I did stretch things a bit to allow the Cheetah, because it did not race in Europe, but the Alan Green Cheetah, the red #8, was given HTP eligibility status by the FIA, and I guess if we allow it in the 64 race option, we should also allow the Corvette Grand Sport roadster. Or, maybe neither should be allowed.
To my knowledge, all of the Tourist Trophy Revival races have been 1960-1964 except for one year. The Kinrara Trophy Revival (now Stirling Moss Memorial Trophy), which started in 2016, has been for pre-1963 cars.
The 63 289 Cobras that raced were all technically roadsters with removable hardtops, although there may have been some open 289 cars that raced in the expanded 1964 race. To my knowledge all of the Cobras that raced in the Revivals were either the hardtop coupes or Daytonas.
The Ferrari 250 LM is not a GT car and perhaps we should not run it. I am reluctant to exclude cars that members may have already purchased or raced (except for the overscale Racers), so we will soon need to make a firm decision on what cars we will allow.
I would appreciate as much input as possible on what everyone thinks.
January 1, 2021 at 12:56 PM #15971
Let me know the thoughts on the Ferrari 250LM. I was looking to run a Fly version with a 3D chassis. I have a MMK Ferrari 250GT but its so top heavy and the adjustable chassis is such a piece of junk that it does not run very well and would not be that competitive. I am good with running any car that has a 3D chassis available for it. I could run a Fly 250GTO if I need to run a real GT car. Let me know where this lands.
January 2, 2021 at 4:59 PM #15973
The Ferrari 250/275 LM has continued to run in the Goodwood Revival Trophy Series, so unless we decide to roll back to a 1963 limit, I think it should still be eligible.
January 3, 2021 at 12:18 PM #15974
January 3, 2021 at 12:51 PM #15976
As I have said, the Cheetah is marginally eligible. I do not have a Carrera Cheetah and I do not know if it is roughly the same size as the other cars. If it is, and should therefore be of similar performance, in the interest of having a variety of entrants, I think it should be allowed. If someone has one, please let me know of rear body width. Also, if members think that it does not belong, please let me know. The #8 Alan Green Cheetah has the best provenance for eligibility, but we generally allow fantasy liveries. Period correct liveries are preferred.
April 25, 2021 at 8:43 PM #16296
Updated comments on Tourist Trophy series:
Cobras–Most of the Cobras that ran were original 289 roadsters. These cars ran with the removable hardtops, both in period and Revivals. The Cobra Daytona Coupes ran in 1964. 3D printed chassis are available for these cars. A MRRC Cobra is listed in the rules, but this may be in error. The only MRRC Cobras that I am aware of are 427 Cobras, which are not eligible. If anyone knows of a MRRC 289 Cobra, please let me know.
Aston Martin–There are a number of eligible cars; all are resin and will likely be heavy. Most of these are set up to use an adjustable chassis, which is not particularly race competitive. Adapting a more competitive chassis would be advised. These would likely require effort to be competitive.
Corvettes–only C1 and C2 Corvettes are eligible; Grand Sports are not. I do not have a Ninco C1 and do not know what issues there may be. There are some 1:32 C1 and Stingray static kits available; unknown issues. Carrera Stingrays are also an unknown quantity.
Cheetah–As in previous posts, the Cheetahs are marginally eligible, unless it is discovered that the Carrera Cheetahs are larger than 1:32. The vintage Strombecker Cheetah would be eligible, but it is a pretty small car.
Porsche 904–The vintage Monogram is eligible, but it is a pretty narrow car.
Ferrari–There are a lot of eligible Ferrari cars eligible. The Racer Ferraris are too large and are not eligible. The only known plastic Ferraris are the Fly GTO and the Fly 250LM and the Monogram GTO 64. Both sidewinder and inline 3D chassis are available for the Fly GTO and only an inline is available for the Fly 250LM. The Slot.it GT40 chassis can also be modified to fit these cars as I showed in my How-To post: http://austinslotcarclub.com/fly-ferrari-gto-slot-it-converson-project/ Clearance is tight at the front of the 250LM and the GT 40 chassis takes a good bit of work to fit in this car. I have only seen inline 3D printed chassis for the Monogram. The other Ferraris are resin and will take more work to be competitive.
Jaguars–I built the Revell-Monogram Lightweight E-Type using a 3D printed chassis. The Lister-Jaguar is resin and would take work to be competitive.
Maserati–The Maseratis are resin and will take work
As I do not have all of the cars on the list, I cannot confirm that all of the cars have similar rear track width. If any of the cars have a clear advantage due to a wider rear end, it could be necessary to impose a maximum rear tire total width. If anyone has a Carrera car they would like to enter, please let me know the rear body width. And, if anyone has any question about a specific car, please let me know.
April 26, 2021 at 9:25 AM #16297
How can I tell my MRRC cobra is a 427? It has the short removable hardtop and I have one with the longer removable hard top that I was not preparing. I want to try the MRRC chassis with the SCC adjustable front axle carriers. Stop me now if It is a 427.
April 26, 2021 at 2:40 PM #16330
I have an ISO-Grifo Bizzarini on order from George Turner Models (resin shell), and it is taking forever to get here. Is that car is still eligible? I have a 1/32 AMT C2 Corvette as backup.
April 26, 2021 at 5:57 PM #16331
Although I could not find the Bizzarini entered in period, it has raced in later Goodwood Revivals, so it would be legal. The Bizzarrini is a pretty cool looking car.
It can be difficult noting the difference in 289 and 427 racing Cobras, especially in slot cars, particularly during this time period, as car bodies were modified to fit wider and wider tires. Originally, the 289 Cobras did not have factory fender flares, except for the FIA Cobras, which had a bulging rear end very similar to the 427 cars. In addition, 289s were modified with makeshift flares in period. The 289s had a smaller grille opening that was flat on the bottom. The 427s had vertical oval brake openings on either side of the larger oval grille The 427s had large side pipes mounted along the rocker panels; the 289s either did not have side pipes, or they were smaller and located below the rocker panel. In a quick look at your Cobra on Saturday, it looked correct. The 289s had both a short hardtop roof or a longer, fastback roof. It was very rare to see a 427 with a removable hardtop. I did find that MRRC has correct 289s with hardtops:
Here is a Carrera 289:
I found this car on eBay, advertised as an MRRC. I do not think it actually is an MRRC. It is a model of the same car as the Carrera, but it looks like the manufacturer used a 427 body with the 289 roof.
Considering the difficulty in identifying “correct” 289s, I would be willing not to look too closely at a 289/427 Cobra. My main concern is with the potential wider rear end of a 427 car. If one is entered, a maximum rear track width may be required.
May 10, 2021 at 10:26 PM #16429
My black hardtop was the orange car shown and I have the red lemans roof car unmolested. I want to get the black car running, even if not competitive because that guy at the Revival always shows up looking so tough. It may be entered, but not raced as they say. I am getting outside assistance.
I looked at many Cobras at the vintage races in recent years and the whole rear fender on the 427 was wider than the 289 parked next to it.
April 26, 2021 at 6:21 PM #16332
I think the AMT Stingray is quite a nice kit, with some small issues. The rear bumperettes are supported by the license plate, so there was a big ugly chunk taken out of the back. Sheet styrene to the rescue. I got it CHEEP at Hobby Lobby.
May 10, 2021 at 11:23 AM #16426
Russ, I notice that headlights are required. I can open up the eyes of the stingray, like a club racer, if that is needed. Is is needed?
May 11, 2021 at 1:09 PM #16431
W O W – I am sure the performance of many of these cars will be a challenge – but GOSH DARN …. it looks like there will be some Gorgeous cars in the race!
I am just planning to enter my Ferrari GT250 from 2017 and attempt a build with the Bill Thomas Aluminum Cheetah with a 3DP chassis.
May 11, 2021 at 10:17 PM #16432
The headlight specification is a holdover from a previous series and I believe that it is referring to the real race cars having required head and tail lights. As many racecar headlights in period were covered during daytime racing, sometimes with tape, sometimes with metal or plastic covers, or otherwise not visible, I do not think visible headlights should be required.
Tracing Cobra race car body modifications can be tricky as it was a constantly evolving process, with various fender flares and extensions being used. The ultimate 289 body (and my personal favorite Cobra shape) may well have been the five FIA 289 Cobras that were built. These cars had a wide rear body, requiring the doors to have a cutback rear edge. The front wheelwells had wide fender flare extensions and an oil cooler inlet was added below the regular 289 flat-bottom grill opening. The hood had a scoop for fresh air in and added side fender vents let hot air out. The FIA cars also had the “suitcase” bumps on the trunk lids to clear the mandated FIA luggage space.
The 1/24 Revell slot car is a pretty accurate FIA car, except for the lack of trunk bumps. The AMT Cobra behind is a 1/25 early car.
After the FIA cars, there were 11 USRRC Cobras built, using the FIA mods. Then the Kardashian FIA rear body was used as the buck for the 427 rear body, although there were variations here as well; the street, competition, and S/C cars had slight differences on the rear fenders, all very similar to the FIA 289 rear fenders, except that the doors were not cutback. In addition, 33 427s were built with narrower rear fenders, closer to the rear tires. After a run of the “narrow-hip” cars Shelby went back to the wider rear, because it looked better.
In 1/32 scale, the Revell hardtop is an early 289 and pretty close to the LeMans/Goodwood hardtop cars, as they were raced in period. The MRRC car behind is clearly a 427.
May 11, 2021 at 11:40 PM #16433
Russ, whats ur ruling on this puppy?
May 13, 2021 at 10:53 AM #16472
Thanks, Russ. I will proceed, then 🙂
May 14, 2021 at 9:57 AM #16473
Here are some Cobra photos I took at Road America in 2001. The #19 car is a 289 USRRC Cobra being driven by Dan Gerber, the driver of that very car in 1964. Notice the cutback doors. The #99 car is a 427 Cobra. The photos were taken with a 2.3 megapixel Canon camera.
May 14, 2021 at 6:37 PM #16475
Russell – it’s so great for us to have your world-class pictures on our walls and website!
June 2, 2021 at 6:58 PM #16578StabnSteerParticipant
Soooo…I wonder why is the 427 being excluded for being a 427 Cobra. Wikipedia (I know…maybe not the be-all source) says the 427 Cobra Daytona coupe Chassis # CSX2299 raced in the tourist trophy of 1964.
I have the monogram model of this car. The Wikepedia article mentions the paint schemes used in 64 and 65…my model is plainly the 65 paint scheme, although the CAR itself is the same run in 1964 TT. If the paint job is an issue, I can repaint it (to a fantasy livery…I don’t have the patience to create the original scheme!).
The rear track is approximately 56mm.
Is it legal?
And to make it more interesting, I’m probably warped enough to try to make this front-motored slot car work so I don’t have to build some way of getting the motor under the driver compartment. This will almost certainly make it noncompetitive, but hey…I love a challenge!
June 3, 2021 at 8:02 PM #16580
I am using the Fly 250LM original chassis that was SW to continue to have the lovely interior. i also added the SCC front axle adjustment blocks which were a challenge to install. I really came close to using the 3d inline chassis, but cutting up the interior is no picnic. I am glad two of use may have challenged the sine qua non for a change.
For this series I am not convinced every car should be max winner stuff. The races have definite big gaps in performance but the cars look awesome.
I do have a Cobra hardtop from a few years ago that I never quite got running. I may order the new 3d for that black beast. It even had side pipes from styrene tubes. I did not know the Daytonas had a 427. My Scalextric 427 1972 (?) Greenwood Radial Corvette has the front motor, but I only race it on my short track.
June 7, 2021 at 6:37 PM #16591
CSX 2299 is not a 427. 427s start with chassis number CSX 3XXX. Your car was the second Daytona Coupe completed. I have the Monogram Viking Blue #21 CSX 2299. While we encourage period liveries and allow fantasy liveries, there is no need to repaint your car. Besides, I think the 65 Guardsman Blue car looks better. My #21 has a 3D printed chassis and a thin, sheet aluminum interior, with thin-cast resin dash, console, driver, and spare tire/wheel. I have flat sheet plastic interiors in other TT cars, with dash top and driver head and shoulders that look fine and are easy to do. I would think that the front motor would be very difficult to make competitive.
CSX 2299, after an impressive list of drivers in period, was sold to Michael Shoen in 1969 for $5100. Mike Shoen wrote The Cobra-Ferrari Wars.
Looking forward to seeing your car. I plan on being at HQ on Saturday and bring my six TT cars to test.
June 9, 2021 at 8:51 AM #16592
I got the Fly 250LM sidewinder running. It has the Slot Car Corner front axle blocks installed which required removing front chassis plastic and installing the grill surround without the screws. It was similar to the description in Ary’s McLaren how-to on our site. It is also running a slot.it orange bell with metal gears. That spacing of the gears was a challenge and almost pushed me to use the Fly short can black bell motor with the plastic gears. The rear axle is rolling in SCC bronze bearings. The guide is a slot.it long wood track model. The Fly model has beautiful interior detail which is what lead me to use the fly chassis sidewinder setup. The 3D printed chassis requires inline motor orientation that causes fabrication of a new flat interior. I did not want to do that if I could soup up the Fly sidewinder chassis. As a result of keeping the full interior I also have put in flat lead sheet and the tungsten weight in the magnet slot. The final touch is using the Racer premium wire wheels from my previous 275GTO and the tires. I ran best lap with the body of 4.6 =/-. The chassis alone was 4.4 and very stable.
June 10, 2021 at 10:59 AM #16611
Like Randy I am running for Fun, using my 2017 vintage FLY Ferrari ’63 250-GTO
July 27, 2021 at 1:44 AM #16769
Team 8 Ball Cobra roadster hardtop will show up for race two. Scrapped the attempt begun three begun years ago to alter the MRRC front axle setup for a new 3D chassis.
August 9, 2021 at 10:39 AM #16810
“Missed it by … “That Much” … ” (maxwell smart)
Of course, after a good first round my tires decided to break their glue, with symptoms such as jack-rabbit hops in the back straight (when the wheels would spin inside the tire, then finally grab the bead and hence flip the car).
After several frustrating experiments with freshly glued and trued tires; it became obvious that for my set-up a trued 19mm outside diameter tire is optimal. Any tires larger than 19.5mm in diameter make the car want to roll like an armadillo in the “button” curve, esp. in Green.
A low Center-of-Gravity (CG) is very important in All cars – but especially for these skinny-track cars. Even though the Fly bodies seem to be made of the same plastic as other brands, and seem to be as thin (certainly thinner than Scalextric and most Pioneer/Revell) it seems they are a few grams top-heavy, thus making cornering very challenging (esp. using OEM stock chassis). Another contributor is the shape of most of the coupe bodies, with mass peaking a little back of the center of the wheelbase (encouraging rolls and slides from the JLO shape).
Offset motor pods help, as well as small diameter tires, Lexan cockpits, and 3DP chassis.
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