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I sure would like a chance to run the 2018 rally class on the rally track so that we can sort out car issues like we have been doing with the first three new classes this year. Please set aside a Saturday after the regular race and a Thursday or two for test and tune.
We have learned a lot from early testing with five or six cars for the Thunder Slots and are making some real single car tests for the MRSlotcar setup that were not expected to need changing.
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1. Major BuzzKill here: Thanks for starting these discussion threads, but can we use some form of naming convention, like including the year in the thread name (and no need to include ‘discussion’ in the name of the discussion :O) We are all over the naming map this year 😛
I will see if Brian can shorten this topic to: <2018-NSR Rally> -or- <2018-NSR Rally-Clio-vs-Punto>2. Now for the “Stig” to speak: As I have announced a few times, we will start having open-Ark Sat afternoons and Thurs nights starting in April for specific tuning/practice for this year’s rally series. I will also look for “dark” Saturdays to use for Rally practice.
3. The rules have been posted for weeks. They are fairly open-I am welcoming comments on such things as:
A. Motors – keep the current limit to the short-cans and IL or SW pods? Or allow long-cans which basically blows that spec open.
B. Chassis – keep the current open spec allowing hard chassis? After the stink we had in 2017 over the 917 chassis I wanted to allow people to have the stiffness they desired.
C. I hope people by now have at least one mule, or a Clio-and-Punto pair to compare to each other. Other than the Punto model that Marty reminded us of recently, has anyone found an alternative livery? And what do people think of the Clios they are finding?4. I will create a “Dibs List”. We are not racing side-by-side so unique liveries are not as important as our road races; but I do encourage variety-even if that only means a different car number.
5. Wing rules: I don’t want a track-call if a wing falls off – and hence break a racers “flow”. You get a 5 second penalty added to your time (per race/heat) – simple and effective (and I predict very low probability).
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Why is the anglewinder pod that my car came with not allowed? Is it just too fast or just too bad?
Since sidewinder and inline are allowed, two different motors are allowed, and maybe long can and short can, does this mean one might not be good for the rally track, but someone will figure it out and wallop us all?
Can I run my spare 20k motor?
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Randy – I *asked for* comments such as your reasoning why the OEM long-can – in AngleWinder configuration – should be allowed. Marty has had good results experimenting with the short-cans, but many of us had good luck with the Hi-torque, long-cans (which work good at low voltage) in the 2017-WRC rally – That’s why I opened the subject up for smart guys like you : )
Invasion of the Pods! – the AW and IL pods currently spec’ed only take short-cans
Spare some change buddy? – 20K; do you mean your spare NSR3001(22k) from the 2017-917?
// and yes- based on history I am sure ‘someone’ will wallop us all!
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@Randy and @Shawn; Marty proposed the series but Yours Truly is series manager for Rally-18; I believe it is even stated so on the rules page :O
@Randy, as per posts [11901][11894][11946] and probably a few others:
–you have stated your desire to use the OEM anglewinder; as I have stated before I am considering this change. My friend, please don’t beat this horse into hamburger 🙂 If you still need to beat it – push to me since last time I checked I was SM.
–More importantly, I have requested input from All – and only gotten your input online (and 1×1 from Dave and Alex today)
** To address your concerns I will be more aggressive in getting input and have a decision date. Please note that Final Rules for this series was established by Ary as May. I can accelerate that up into April if it soothes all the apprehension on this series.
March 11 was when I made the note in the rules – it was never a discussion or decision date. The intent was for someone *other than* @RadialTA to give me their feedback 🙂
If I remember correctly, we are in this *hobby for Fun and friendship, not angst =:
I hear you and will take action to reduce the angst.
Cpt Obvious and Major Buzzkill signing off … -
ISSUE: The OEM shipped motor is either an Inline or Aw long-can. Long cans provide the high torque at low-voltage that we need coming out of turns.
1. Altho some people may have great success with short cans, is there any solid reason to force people to buy a short can motor and pod – if they are happy with their OEM long can?
2. Should we restrict the motors to OEM as delivered?
3. Restrict to any NSR long cans?
4. Restrict to any NSR short or long cans?
5. Open motor? -
I’m fine with letting the long can anglewinders run. Honestly, the benefit of the anglewinder is to get the long can in a sidewinder configuration. It also allows for the magnet affect of the motor to help traction but is nullified on the rally track as it’s copper tape and not magnabraid. They will have oodles of torque out of the hole but might be a serious handful to control without lowering the track power. There is a point where lowering it doesn’t give the motor enough power to fully run and motor variances now come more into play.
I’ve already got a car that came with a sidewinder configuration so I’m just making my thoughts known for the newer racers.
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After ordering a 1035 IL Renault, I found that it came with a long can. Rules say inline is ok, but short can only. After looking at Pendle, Prof Mo and my NSR catalog, it became apparent there was no short can inline pod available. I propose that any stock configuration sold by NSR should be allowed. The number of models available for sale is very limited right now other than AW.
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I have not run a rally car so I have no experience in what works and what does not. I have purchased the 1164 Abarth S2000 which came with a long can anglewinder. From Shawn’s comments the greater torque of the long can may be difficult to control, as has been the case on the big track. If that is the case then the long can could be disadvantaged. At this point, without testing of the various configurations, guessing what setup will work best would seem to be a crapshoot. Considering that at least three of the cars that members have purchased have the long can (including myself), I would be in favor of allowing the long can. After this series, with more test and racing data, decisions about allowable motor configurations could be changed for future rally series.
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I vote to run NSR motors, any long or short can, any configuration, with changes allowed during the long series.
My Fiat serial number 1164 has a swinging guide arm without any hold down screw, and axle grub screw holes but not grub screws. I’m ordering the accessory kit with those parts and springs for the guide arm (I guess).
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I am good with opening the rules up more and running any motor style and in any configuration. The point of having just one option is one of cost. If we open it up and someone is winning wiht a different option then everyone goes out and spends more money to make their car as identical to the winners as possible. I think with such a new track and having no defined perfect set up it would be better to spend time driving and less on ordering.
Marty
Straight roads are for fast cars, turns are for fast drivers. Colin McRae
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Our new Fiats have the triangular swing arm for the guide. It would be a big help if a swing arm rally expert posted a demo for setting up the arm travel for our track. The car came without an arm locking screw and axle grub screws, but NSR sells a parts kit with 4 different length screws, 4 axle grub screws and 2 springs. I ordered the kit and should have it this week.
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RULES
As of the 4/14 club meeting the rules have been finalized. NSR motors are required, but both short and long cans are allowed, recommended RPM is between 21k to 30k, with high torque (180 to 350gm-cm). Voltage regulation will be key to you picking the right motor and gear combination.
NSR tires are mandatory, be careful of splitting when gluing tires.
If you want to run the OEM chassis, pod, motor – that is fine – use the parts that you can Find, Afford and that work well for you. This is still an experimental series to help flesh out what possible combinations perform well. Obviously speed is important but as we saw in 2017 control and handling are more important. A certain amount of tire drift is desired for the tight corners; high torque motors ran at low RPM can be a good combination. Realize that max torque actually occurs at low voltage levels; it drops off as voltage and RPMs increase.
David, Shawn, Stephen and Marty all produced some fantastic speeds in last years final races so we will be interested to see what architectures they use.PRACTICE
I will write up instructions on how to open and setup the Rally track for practice. Official practice dates are in the Google Calendar – I will summarize them in the forum in a new post. -
CARS
FIAT PUNTO: NSR1164AW Fiat Abarth S2000 Rally Vinho Madeir $107 NSR1043 (AW or IL WhiteKit) $109
Hard to Find: NSR1057, 1040, 1030
Clio-R3: NSR1016 $90 //others Hard to Find: NSR1045 (available as AW, IL, SW) NSR1014, 1015, 1020, 1029
Clio-Cup: NSR1009 $90 NSR1035 $90 //others Hard to Find: NSR1011, 1012, 1013, 1019 1026 1025 1027
NSR0009AW Renault Clio Cup “Piet Mondrian” Livery $87.00 /Triangle pod-Short can-Anglewinder
NSR0009SW Renault Clio Cup “Piet Mondrian” Livery $87.00 /Triangle pod-Short can-SidewinderPARTS LIST FOR REFERENCE
(reco)NSR1239 Hardware Kit (springs, screws) for Ride Height Adjustment Drop Arm Chassis Cars $4.00
NSR1238 Basic Screw Kit for ride Height Adjustment Drop Arm Chassis Cars $2.70NSR4809 M3 Setscrews 1.5mm Hex for 3mm Axle Applications $3.00
NSR4842 Long-shaft Rally racing guide/ needs to be trimmed to 7mm long
NSR4841 Low profile racing guide/ needs to be trimmed to 7mm long
WHEEL Inserts: NSR5430-Black/ 5429-Blue/ 5432-Silver/ 5431-White/ 5428-RedNSR4836 METRIC BODY SCREW Smooth shank (10pcs) $5.00
(reco) NSR1234 GUIDE DROP ARM 64mm XHARD VIOLET/RED $6.70
NSR1254 EVO Inline Triangular EXTRAHARD Red Long Can Motor Mount $9.50
NSR1259 EVO Anglewinder Triangular EXTRAHARD Red Long Can Motor Mount $9.50
NSR1264 EVO Sidewinder Triangular XHARD Red Short Can Motor Mount $9.50
(reco) NSR1484 Fiat Punto 2000/ Clio EVO Chassis (triangle pod) EXTRAHARD GREEN $15.00
(alternative) NSR1438 Fiat Punto 2000/ Clio EVO Chassis (triangle pod) HARD WHITE $9.40
NSR1202 Plastic Cups for Triangular Motor Support x10 $7.50
(alternative) NSR1205 Plastic Cups for Classic NSR1249 Mosler EVO 3 Motor Support x10 $7.50
(reco) NSR5206 Supergrip 19 x 10mm REAR Rally Tires (x4) $9.00
(alternative) NSR5207 Ultragrip 19 x 10 REAR Rally Tires (x4) $9.00
(reco) NSR5226, 5201 Zero Grip 17 x 8mm FRONT Tires $9.00
NSR5003 FRONT 17 x 8mm ultra light (solid nib) aluminum wheels $13.00 ** can also be used for rear
NSR5004 REAR 17 x 10mm Air System aluminum wheels $13.00(OEM Motor) NSR3023 KING EVO 3 Balanced Motor 21,400 RPM 350 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect $17
….. (alternatives)
NSR3017 KING EVO Motor 21,400 RPM 320 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect
NSR3022 KING EVO 2 Balanced Motor 21,400 RPM 322 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect
NSR3026 KING EVO Balanced Motor 25,000 RPM 350 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect
NSR3027 KING EVO Balanced Motor 30,000 RPM 365 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect
NSR3002 SHARK standard Mabuchi Short-can 30,000 RPM 210 g-cm Torque
NSR3003 SHARK Balanced standard Short-can 25,000 RPM 176 g-cm Torque
NSR3001 SHARK standard Mabuchi Short-can 22,400 RPM 168 g-cm Torque
NSR3004 SHARK Balanced standard Short-can 20,000 RPM 164 g-cm Torque -
NSR RALLY PRACTICE DATES
May 24, 26
June 6, 30
July 7, 12
Race #1 = July 14Practice dates for mid-Jul, Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec are TBD. Generally the weekend before the next Rally race will be a practice, after the quarter race (e.g. ScaleAuto then Carrera).
— The rally track will be opened and practice software started. This will be either on “dark” non-racing weekends, or after another race.
— When rally practice is scheduled for a Saturday, the immediately preceding Thurs can also be used as a practice night. Naturally we will have to work with Rudy to clear the top of the Ark.
— Don’t break the keys for the top, and if a lock gets loose try and tighten its lock-nut.
The ‘gold’ key is for the timing PC cabinet. There are two silver keys-one opens the top locks the other opens the direction switch door, (they may be labeled backwards on the dog-tag). -
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All we need is two people to safely remove the cover panels. As per Marty’s demonstration earlier this year, please do not man-handle the locks; just like a car and woman some gentle turns will work much better than too much force. Carefully test which key opens the top locks (the dog tag notes may be backwards!) Only one key is needed for the top. The other key is for the computer door and the driver’s station.
** This is an excellent opportunity for *more* racers to become comfortable in setting up the Rally track. Thurs 5/24 I will try and leave work early enough to be there by 6:30p. But do not wait for me – call me in-route (512-468-1376) if you experience any problems and I will talk you through it. On Saturday 5/26 I will open the track between 12-1p until at least 4pm.
The extension cord is under the Ark, fish it out with a grabber or a broom, and plug into the power strip below Russ’ pit area. Use a grabber to get down the Swifters and dust the track Gently so the tape is not pulled up. Press any lifing tape down carefully, smoothing it in One direction (otherwise you will wrinkle and may rip it). Time and heat may have allowed some of the tape to lose adhesion. If any parts are significantly lifted or ripped please do Not use the rack-we will notify Marty so he can repair ASAP.
Carefully pull out the power supply out just enough to reach the voltage control knob.
Carefully set the computer on a chair next to the Ark. Be careful of the cord for the speakers so you don’t break the plug. Carefully make sure the power plug is in all the way and make sure the cords are Not in a Spaghetti mess. The computer may just be “sleeping” and should Not need to be powered On or reset.
However it has been a while since the cord was plugged in so its battery may be discharged. If so – give it 10 minutes to get the battery to a decent level then hard start the computer with the power switch. (we should start plugging in the cord every Thurs or Sat to keep the PC charged.)
Click on the SC Timer software if it is not already running (it should be). Re-set for a new 40-lap heat. During practice pause SC Timer if you pull off before 40; otherwise start a new heat between each practice round. -
RALLY PRACTICE NOTES
Marty posted some impressive 6.9s so we have a goal to work towards! John and Randy posted at least some 7.1s and a few 7.0s? I got into the 7.2s after dropping to the 8-9volt range.
The long-cans are as expected, very hot at any voltage above 10v and demand lots of finesse on the trigger to prevent hopping from the NSR Supergrips (which seem to have good drift in the corners) and flying (literally) in the straight. You may want to experiment with short cans (Shark-20, -22) if you have the pods for them. The square pods (for short-cans) from some of the stock CLIOs may be on par with the triangle pods since handling at low speed is paramount in this series.
The stock guide does not seem to need any trimming. Please report your experience with using the drop-arm “sprung”, or in “fixed” mode (screwed down). Experimenting with front wheel flying height is also needed to prevent both pop-out and excessive wear of the tape.
These cars are super smooth much of the time and don’t seem to need the weight that last years rally platform seemed to favor.
The tape looks in good shape – no lifts or (new) rips were obvious.
** Be very careful with the locks on Cover-1, they are tight and finicky. The key info on the dog-tag is Reverse of reality.
The tarp was put onto the cover to prevent the debris we found on Thurs that had fallen through the joints where the cover-panels meet. I am leaving the extension cord plugged in as often as possible to keep the laptop charged. The SC Timer is being cleared and closed and Windows shut down to reduce battery drainage and more importantly cut down heat from the CPU running. -
Mark,
Running a 6.9 is not that impressive when you look at the times that were run in the last rally series. One lap at 6.9 seconds does not a five minute heat make. There is much more to it than just one lap that is really not that impressive. If it were a 6.5 or 6.6 that would be a different thing.
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Marty-I was only recognizing that out of the people who practiced last week that you -as expected- set the *temporary* bar for us to reach – seeing how it was the first official practice with a new platform, largely untested en masse on our track. You are correct that compared to your 6.702 and many other peoples 6.8s that 6.9 is pedestrian. I am looking forward to your potential 6.5s- that will be exciting!
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NSR RALLY PRACTICE
This Sat (6/16) after Thunderslot #6 //Road track will most likely be used for ScaleAuto test-and-tune.
Next week (6/23) after ScaleAuto #1 //I need someone to open the ARK, start the PC, SCTimer; I will be in Florida racing alligators and mullet
6/30 – Noon – 4-ish
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POWER TUNING
These cars are not as Top-heavy as the 2017 WRCs, so they corner well without as much weight. But – the lighter weight not only (+) makes them drift well with the SuperGrips, it (-) makes them very sensitive to the higher torque motors (e.g. hopping during acceleration out of a turn).
Experimentation with -lower voltages, or -lower RPM/lower torque motors may be key (Shark-20s from the 917 series or a King-17 may be worth testing).GUIDE
The Rally specific guides have a long shaft, so the motor-wires can act like a weak spring in addition to a sprung drop-arm. If you don’t like the slop from the longer shaft, the out-of-the-box pop-in and screw-in – short-shaft- guides (from our past NSR series) seem to be the same dimensions. Please report on your experiences with the guides and drop-arms. -
RALLY DROP ARMS
If you are using the OEM CLIO-R small-can chassis, with a rectangular pod, obviously you dont have a triangular pod or drop arm. Use any NSR ‘regular’ short-shaft guide (pop-in or screw-on) and up to a 1mm spacer to take out the rocking/slop. Good luck on adjusting axle height : (Below are the major options for setup of the NSR drop arms.
1. FIXED
If you have an OEM or ugrade chassis with triangular pod and drop-arm, again use a short-shaft guide. Use an NSR small machine screw (the body and pod screws are too short) without the spring, to keep the drop-arm firm. Be careful to Not over-tighten and hence warp the the arm’s nose.2. SPRUNG
The drop-arm machine screw binds on the on bridge over the guide. To reduce this friction, in the bridge very carefully widen the oblong hole where the arm fixing screw goes through. Widen at the back (towards the motor) of the hole with an Exacto or a small bit in a pin vise. Be slow and careful, there is not much meat in that area.
Using the long machine screw from the front axle adjusting “kit” that Randy has identified; place a spring over the screw and set the spring in the arms cup around the nut area for the screw. Do not glue the spring in – you can accidently glue the arm screw or bind the spring.
You can use the long-shaft rally guide, which will give you more spring from the motor wires. If the slop of the long shaft causes you handling problems, you can use the short-shafts3. FLOP
As illustrated in the NSR catalog, the drop arm can be free and un-sprung, using the motor wires as a spring. This requires slightly longer than normal amount of motor wire past the front axle. Generally this configuration is shown with the long-shaft rally guide, letting it float in the guide-boss/tongue, without a spring on either the drop-arm or the shaft (dont put a spring on the shaft). There is nothing prohibiting you from using any of the short-shaft guides.
** I personally do not have any testing results on how any of the above configurations perform relative to the others. Any comments from testing are welcome!
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UNSPRUNG ‘FLOPPY’ DROP-ARM TEST RESULTS
— 2-3gm -in the “V” behind the guide boss hole- will help keep the guide seated in the slot.
— The long-shaft may bind in the pinch-turn in the valley, try a short-shaft guide (pop-in or screw)
— You may also want to experiment with having the wires under or over the bridge. -
IMPORTANT RULE UPDATES OR CLARIFICATIONS
1. Guide – ANY NSR guide is allowed they are all about the same. DO NOT TRIM the blade to 7.5MM length – that was a TYPO – sorry!! the stock length of 17.5mm works Fine.
Drop-arm – to-date there does not seem to be an obvious advantage between Sprung, Firm, Floppy.
2. Wheels – Stock out of the box wheels are allowed Front-NSR5003 (17x8mm), Rear-NSR5004(17x10mm) Measured at the rim they may be 16mm dia. Just use what came with the car!
3. Tires – Supergrips seem best, you need some drift. Make sure your tires are camphered/rounded on the shoulder. To help drift we are ‘cleaning’ the track only by running; a very light dust seems to be Ok to allow drift. You will need to experiment with your brake setting, too heavy will make you chatter in the curves and lose at least a hundredth as compared to coasting thru.4. Duration – just like WTC – 40laps, no yellow lights (unless a major major problem has occurred)
4. Float – as on the road track, a loose pod seems best; plus moderately loose body screws. Tape your pod screws since they are so short and the enhanced vibration of the rally course will make them drop quickly.
5. Spur – even on the stock spur gears you may get some friction from an almost undetectable rub against the chassis-a very thin washer between the spur Shank and the Oilite bush will cure the rub. Inline gears are open-choice (e.g. Slot.It allowed). AW and SW must be NSR.
6. Baseline times: These are quicker than WTC – average times at first will be 6.9-7.1, bad > 7.3
6.6-6.8 are currently “very good” – Best times in practice to-date have been 6.4.
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