Slot It DTM Proxy Race

I found the stock tires as 1228C1 on Electric Dreams, but not professor motor. One of the sites has the DTM for sale and has that great list of dimensions and parts. It says the stock tires are 1228C1 also. There are some other tires listed as C1, but I take it we use 1228s

Randy - based on what they communicated to me the stock C1 tires - PT1228C1 - tires are the ones that work the best on their track.

Guides - You could use the stock guide if you would like to save $5 or be spendy and get the Slot It CH10 which is the same guide with a screw mount.

Marty

The Alfa rear wing mount is pretty spindly; what is allowable for reinforcement? Can the ends of the wings be taped to the body? What about reinforcement with plastic?

Russell

The rear wing cannot be attached to the body - unless you are running a Mercedes and it comes that way. You can use the tried and true trick of putting ShoeGoo under the wing and on the struts. I would allow some reinforcement of the struts just as long as they are on minimal and on the struts.

Marty

Clear enough. If my wing breaks during a race, please withdraw the car immediately. Make no attempt to repair/replace the wing. A broken wing means that race is over for the car.

Marty, I will be sending the beer can to you tomorrow. Do you know if the deep wood guide bottoms out on the Houston track? Not in a good position to swap it out between venues if I entrust it to your care.

Although I'm running the slow mercedes panzer tough wing, I believe the other cars' wings should be reinforced into the trunk if the team wants their car to be strudy. The old shoe goo worked on some cars, but I think we need to adapt.

We have different rear wing rules for different race series; some only require the wing to be on at the start of the heat, and some race series require that wings have to be re-installed during the green flag heat. Also some race series allow taping the ends of the wings, or reinforcing the wings, and some do not. My comments before were just a statement of fact. Having to replace a wing during a race (unless it is a snap-in wing) means that heat and that race are done for the car. Even if the supplies were ready and available at the driver's station, it would take a minute or more, and would probably not last. I would rather that a quickie, futile attempt to repair a wing, which might complicate a later, at-home repair, not be attempted.

Marty
Will the cars be in Parc Ferme for the duration of the series; that is, the owners will not be allowed to work on them between races?
Russell

Are we on track for Round-1 this weekend? From some testing that Randy Dave and I did this weekend I request an additional week to tune.

What are the details about Round-1?
When will the cars be received from Houston?
How many cars are coming from Houston?
What specs are they using regarding gears et al?
Are they going to be tested (by Marty?) before the Round-1?
Will drivers have any time for test laps with each car?
Who are the drivers? I volunteer as either driver or Marshal.
When is Ary truly coming back? Does he have to quaratine since he is returning from Brazil?
When will tech inspection be for the ASCC cars? With some of the specs (wing reinforcement for one) will we have 5 minutes to fix it, or a more pragmatic time? Or could we be DQ on day one and have no time to correct the infraction?
So should we tune our cars for the HSARC track and race as configured on the ASCC track? or do we tune gears etc for the ASCC track and later modify before rounds start in Houston?
----
What is the official Guide - CH10 or the normal CH07? is a CHO7 illegal? Seems CH07 is recommended by the documented rules. They are designed for Carerra slot depths, is the HSARC track shallow - less than 7mm deep?
Documented wings specs are: "parts damaged ... Wings mandatory at the start of a heat... White kits allowed – but must be ..." Or have the rules been updated somewhere with other details?

TEST-N-TUNE NOTES OCT 18 2020
We are experiencing a problem with fine dust on track, if (a) we leave the doors open, (b) we do Not cover the track between tests and races. Please cover track when you leave : )

Dave hit a 3.9; using a 9/23 (pink) gear ratio, F22 tires. Running an Opel.
Randy hit 4.4s with the Merc F30s 9/28? (he had stock gears, not sure if he changed them later)
I hit 4.4s; Running an Opel. F30s. Tried both 9/23(pink) and 9/24(green) ratios (both seemed Too Hot, neither improved the times!)
NOTE to have a calculated rear-wheel RPM of 7800, the ratio is 2.69, hence a 9/24(grn). For 7500 2.78, 9/25(orange)
...
-- The cars are extremely noisy, I guess from the body rattling against the pan (with loose body screws for float).
-- The best spot for adding any weight, IF needed, is not clear. The Opel's don't seem to really need any additional weight. I tried the 2.5g slug in the front pod slot, rear pod slot, and without the slug with little obvious change.
-- Randy's Merc handled better with a few grams behind the guide.
-- The black end-bell 21k motor *seems lethargic (in response), even at 12v.
-- In the Esses the rear can swing around in the 2nd curve (both Merc and Opel)
-- The use of the Spherical bushings in the front uprights is "iffy". They seem to stick in the channels making adjusting the axle height very tedious. Also, because they are designed for the rear drive axle, (hence designed to be broke in from an active axle) they seem overly tight for a passive front axle. **I obtained smoother action (less friction) and easier axle height adjustment using our typical practice of just using long grub screws, no bushings.

**I also obtained smoother action using Aluminum front wheels; which also adds a useful gram or 2 on the guide.

I would love to run Sat in DTM race. Hopefully we can mix things up and have John and Mark run different lanes. I would like to run Blue or Yellow.

Mark was right about dust on the track we were there 3 hrs and never got rid of it, I know the breeze is nice but it brings in a lot of dirt.

I replaced the MB stock wiring because it was heavy and blocking the guide movement.  I replaced the wire with thin flexible wire, much shorter and still had trouble with the wire hanging up on something.  My flashlight showed the wire was grabbing the 2 brake ducts that poked a good 6 mm into the wire travel area.  The ducts are gone now.  I also replaced the stock stiff contact braids.

I have two tungsten weights, one in front of the motor in the clip place and one shoegooed on the front of the chassis.  Does not stop the perpendicular pinch on the last S turn yellow lane.  The wires are not holding the guide perpendicular any more, but the dust is letting the guide rotate all of the way as the back end slides wide.  I may remove each weight and both weights since David says the Opel is not using any, and just drive like I did in the snow.

I tried the pink gear and it is real squirrely.  Not smooth driving, but David's is.  going to back off a tooth or two.  Good luck driving it.  I am sorry some one else has to drive it.

I am happy to run an MB on which I learned to drive stick shift in 1964.  My Dad was quite brave to let me learn on the 1961 220S he brought home from Germany after his tire company assignment.  Then the Vienna taxi company had them and my Dad bought a diesel in the 2000's.

All,

Here are answers to some of your questions.

What are the details about Round-1? - I need more specifics to answer the question.  The first race of the DTM proxy series will be this Saturday the 24th at 1pm at the clubs headquarters.

When will the cars be received from Houston? - I received them yesterday.  I will be running them through tech today the 22nd.

How many cars are coming from Houston? - 5
What specs are they using regarding gears et al? - I don't fully understand what you are asking.  They are using Slot It in-line crown gears as per the rules.  I don't know what size they are using.  I have told them we run 23t - 25t crown gears when we run Slot It cars on our track.  

Are they going to be tested (by Marty?) before the Round-1? - Yes, on my home track or at the headquarters if I have the time.

Will drivers have any time for test laps with each car? - A very limited amount of time with each car.  That is the way a proxy works.  Drivers are not allowed to adjust a car to suit their driving style.  You drive the car you get. 

Who are the drivers? I volunteer as either driver or Marshal. - As per earlier emails it will be Mark L., John B. and David C. with Marty and Steve working as marshals. 

When is Ary truly coming back? - He is back

Does he have to quaratine since he is returning from Brazil? - Yes.  He will not run the first round of the series.

When will tech inspection be for the ASCC cars? - Saturday, prior to the race.  Starting at noon.

With some of the specs (wing reinforcement for one) will we have 5 minutes to fix it, or a more pragmatic time? Or could we be DQ on day one and have no time to correct the infraction? - I don't understand what you are asking.  The wing must be on the car for the start of the heat.  You can reinforce the bottom of the wing but you cannot attach it to the side of the car.  

So should we tune our cars for the HSARC track and race as configured on the ASCC track? or do we tune gears etc for the ASCC track and later modify before rounds start in Houston? - You can do whatever you want.  Since we are allowing the cars to be reset for the Houston track I would set up my car for our track and then reconfigure it for the Houston track before we send the cars to them.  
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What is the official Guide – CH10 or the normal CH07? is a CHO7 illegal? Seems CH07 is recommended by the documented rules. They are designed for Carerra slot depths, is the HSARC track shallow – less than 7mm deep? - You can run any Slot It guide you want.  I would suggest a CH07 for our track and the CH10 or stock guide for the Houston track.

Documented wings specs are: “parts damaged … Wings mandatory at the start of a heat... White kits allowed – but must be …” Or have the rules been updated somewhere with other details? - What is your question?  Wings must be on the car when it starts the heat.  

More Answers:

Will the cars be in Parc Ferme for the duration of the series; that is, the owners will not be allowed to work on them between races? - Cars will be in Parc Ferme during the race but can be worked on between the races, not the heats of a race.  Only the series manager is allowed to work on the cars during a race.  

Wings:

If a wing falls off during a heat it must be put back on the car before starting the next heat.  This can be done using tape.

Clear enough. If my wing breaks during a race, please withdraw the car immediately. Make no attempt to repair/replace the wing. A broken wing means that race is over for the car. - Russell, your wing can be reattached to the car using tape before the next heat.  There is no need to withdraw a car for something like this.  I am attaching an example of a wing attachment that was done in another proxy with the car that finished second in the series.  Not beautiful but required by the rules.  

Marty

Clarification, please.  The wing rule you refer to above is not the DTM race rule.  The DTM rule states that wings must be replaced during green flag running.  The rule you state is only that the wing has to be on at the START of a heat.  Which is it?  We have race rules written both ways.

Also, you previously stated that the ends of the wings cannot be reinforced by tape.  So, they can't be reinforced by tape, but tape can be used to re-install it?

Russell

Russell - You are correct, there are two sets of rules.  One was for the ASCC's Q4 Slot It DTM series that we are not running and the other is for the Slot It DTM Proxy that we are running.  The DTM proxy rules are attached to the first post on this thread and have not changed since they were posted.  Those are the rules for this Proxy series.

Thanks, Marty

I did not see the attachment on the first post.  I only saw the original Q4 rules.

Russell

WING RULE QUESTION - To reinforce the Opel's wing, with extra tiny struts, I glued a piece of styrene 'between' the wing struts (license plate size).      Legal?

DTM RULES
DTM-Proxy-Car-Rules_Oct 2020

DTM TUNING CHALLENGES
1. BODY FLOAT - a very light/little looseness of the body screws prevents several handling issues. Float needs to come from the MotorPod. Lap Times instantly decreased by 0.2sec (4.4 > 4.2s)

2. GEAR RATIO-Orange(25) seems to be the best compromise for my Opel. Unless you are a "Mush" button user, or have a light "finger", Green(24) can jack-rabbit in the climbs out of the esses and coming out of the "button" turn (a.k.a. T6, T7) Blue(26) is controllable but Slow.

3. WEIGHT DISTRO ****
With an Orange(25) crown, a single 2.5 Slot.IT tungsten "slug" in the Front Pod slot seems to balance the Opel. A 2nd "slug" in the Rear Pod slot (e.g. NOT recommended) makes the car easier to handle in the corners, but encourages the Fishtail coming out of the Esses (a.k.a. T3), and at the button (T6, 7). Randy reported better handling of his Merc with a few grams behind the Guide; my Opel (with alloy front wheels) does not seem to need that.
** Dave reported that two small lead disks (1/2 to 1gram each) on the outer edge of the pan, appx 3/8in ahead (8-9mm) of the Front Pod slot, improved his handling. Make sure they are 1-2mm away from the edge of the chassis so that the body skirt is not hitting them.

4. TIRES
For the ASCC Rounds, F30s (SIPT28) seem to have plenty of grip, but chatter in the corners, even if well-trued and radiused (probably the rear weight trying to drift).
Some people are experimenting with F22 (SIPT1207F22 D19.7-21 x W10mm; NOT SIPT29 D20.8 x W12.4) and N22 tires (SIPT1171N22 D19.7-21 x W10mm)
For the HSARC Rounds, Marty says they recommend the OEM tires, have a C1 compound (the catalog says they are designed for Scalextric and Ninco abrasive tracks) The stock tires may be SIPT1228-C1 (D17.8 x W9.5), or SIPT1159-C1 (D17.2 x W9.5) [in case you need to chase them down in your spares box!]

5. GUIDE
As usual, replace the M2 grubs with eyelets for the motor wires.
For the ASCC Rounds, Marty approved our typical SICH07 "deep-wood-guide" which has a 7mm deep blade, with an 27mm Length.
For the HSARC Rounds, Marty says they recommend either the OEM snap in guide, or the screw SICH10 "racing-guide" which has a 21mm Length. (I assume the 27 mm blade of the SICH07 may bind in the sharp 90-deg corners they have?)

Mark

Thanks for the info.  It is very helpful, especially with new cars.  So David put some weight outboard on the chassis; now that would increase the roll resistance at that point, like a heavier anti-roll bar.  It's the difference when you are spinning in an office chair whether you extend your arms and legs or pull into a ball.  And so you could further tune the suspension by changing the roll resistance front to rear.....

Russell

TIRES FOR THE HSARC TRACK
C1 compound tires are standard OEM on many Slot.ITs
Using a magnifying glass on the branded (e.g goodyear, firestone, pirelli ...) OEM tires you will find many of them are PT1159s, which has a C1 compound, and close to the same size as the PT28(F30)s.  PT1159C1 9.5 W x 17.2 D (should be tight even without glue)
as compared to the PT28(F30) 10 W x 19.5 D

Most of us have these C1 spare tires rattling around in our pitboxes, unless we trashed them or used them on static models. These can be glued with CA, rubberized black CA, or ShoeGoo.

OTHER C1 TIRES THAT MAY BE IN YOUR SPARES:
PT1228C1 9.5 W x 17.8 D
PT35 (1140) 9.5 W x 19.8 D
PT34 (1145) 10 W x 18.5 D
PT2121C1 (1121 = 10 x 19.5) same size as F30

SLOT.IT NUMBERING SCHEMES: Slot.IT part numbers often, but not always, are the 4-digit Drawing aka Mold number. Some part numbers seem to have no meaning (e.g. PT28, PT34) while others include the compound (e.g. PT1228C1, PT1172N22).
The "C" in the compound name is for Carerra; Tires with a "P" in their compound name (P1, P6) the "P" is for plastic (or Perspex) as in Scalextric, Ninco, Carrera tracks. The ones with a "N" are usually 22-shore with a hybrid or full Urethane base, "N" = Ninco since the tires are made to dig into the gritty Ninco track surface. N22 tires are basically equal to NSR Ultragrips; leave lots of grey dust.
Slot.IT does not either (a) have an explicit documented reference of the compound Prefix meanings, it is derived from the recommended surfaces they match the tires to.
(b) consistency in including the Mold-number (e.g. the 11xx or 12xx etc.) or compound number on the tire.
For example, tires with a "P6" compound only have the Slot.IT name on the Sidewall, the only clue they are P6s is they are near the same size as a PT28(F30), they are rubber-based and almost as soft as F30s. There are 3 P6 tires, PT24, PT25, PT1207P6.
(c) Consistency across the years on part numbers.

GUIDE FOR THE HSARC TRACK
HSARC recommended either the OEM snap-in guide, or the screw SICH10 “racing-guide”.

The original guide has a 21mm blade Length (6.5mm depth, 1.25 thickness). A CH10 seems to be 18mm in length (no 'battleship' leading edge). A CH85 is a screw version of the original guide, with a small 3mm leading edge (for 21mm)

I was wrong in a previous post - the 'deep-wood/routed' guide SICH07 has a 24mm blade Length
not 27mm from the previous post. Depth is 8mm vs the OEM blades with 6.5mm depth.

OEM/CH85 Depth 6.50 Length 21mm Thick 1.25
CH10 Depth 6.50 Length 18mm Thick 1.25
CH07 Depth 8.00 Length 24mm Thick 2.00
Scaleauto Red Depth 8.00 Length 23mm Thick 1.75
1-24 Depth 8.00 Length 23mm Thick 2.00 //parma, slick-7, koford etc
Carrera Depth 7.75 Length 26mm Thick 1.75
Scalextric Depth 6.75 Length 18mm Thick 1.25

Are we going to have a time after our last Austin race before the cars are shipped to Houston to change tires and guides.  Is there really a need to change F30 tires?  I suppose I'll put the OEM snap in guide back in unless I find a screw in guide in my box.  When is the date for shipping cars to Houston?

Randy and All - All of us will have time to work on our cars before they get shipped to Scale Auto Racing.  Everyone can pick up their cars starting Saturday after the race.  I need them back at Headquarters by the 30th so I can get them boxed up and shipped off.  I will send out an email to all the participants to make sure everyone understands this.

Don't hesitate to reach out to me if you have any questions on setting up your car for the HSCRC track.

FOR REFERENCE Pix of HSARC Track

Marty I cannot find the latest setup info on the Houston track. Just one of the early ones reco. C1s, 26 or 27 crown with a 9z pinion, Ch10 guide and maybe a few more details. Nothing on front axle height, braid depth etc. Please insert the post number or link. Spyder out.

Mark,

That is all the information I have.  The only piece missing is the depth of the braid on their track relative to the surface.  They didn't understand what that was when I asked for it.  I will be trying again today and let you know as soon as I have something to add.

Here are some comments from John on getting his Opel set up for the Houston track with C1 tires and the stock guide:

"As a side note, I installed a stock type guide and 1167 C1s which were take offs close in size to F30s onto the Opel. Ran a few laps and the C1s were not near as bad as I thought. Include the F30s in the box just in case. Gave Mark my car to send to Houston. If I mailed it from home it would take 2 days longer to get either to Austin or Houston."