Proposed 2022 Race Series - Monte Carlo Rally '61-'71 Proposed builder's series for rally track

I think this was one of the most interesting races as far as the cars built and the use of our rally track.  FOR NEXT YEAR how about one of these options:

Finding ready-to-run cars with nice plastic bodies and adding 3D chassis is a good idea, but Datto's Corvair and the two Saab bodies showed us 3D bodies, and probably resin bodies, with 3D chassis work at the slower rally race.

1. Hill climb with unlimited class like Pikes Peak and big time Euro races without a designated era.  (Like we discussed for  a wide open class on the road course.)
2. Monte Carlo redux with an era, to be discussed, from about 1970 (Porsches that just finished 2022 race) until 1979-ish that includes bodies that still looked like cars including the Lancia and Audi super cars.  Try to have the cars from the beginning of the era that are competitive with the later year.  I think the 2022 race had an era that included cars that were too modern to compete with the early-mid 60's cars.  (I don't care if we have two classes based on tire width this next time, but that was fun until a modern 914 snuck in ha ha ha.)

Monte Rules third draft

Monte Carly Rally Revival 1961-1971 Innovation and Controversy
The Monte Carlo Rally was begun in 1911 to showcase advances in automotive technology, and to promote Monaco as a tourist destination. The decade between 1961, and ’71 developed into a contentious arms-race of creative engineering, and creative interpretation of rules.

This is builders series designed to encourage scratch-building and kit-bashing, but RTR cars are welcome .

To be held on ASCC Rally track
One of the aims of this series is to see a variety of cars and approaches.

Cars eligible:
Any car that ran the Monte between 1961, and 1971 Entrants should have some info and documentation on this. Cars should be a reasonable 1/32 depiction of the prototype.

Classes:
Entries will be divided into 2 classes
Class A: Cars with rear tire width (at bulge) 9mm and wider. Motor choice is open
Class B: Card with rear tire width (at bulge) under 9mm. Motors limited to 18k RPM and lower

Multiple entries are permitted, but each entry will require a unique driver persona for the scoring software.

Model configuration:
Any hard plastic injection molded or resin cast 1/32model. (No vacuum formed shells) RTR slot cars /shells are allowed, but are not eligible for Concours.Cars must have interior tray (Vac form permitted) and figures for driver (with steering wheel) and navigator. Fantasy liveries allowed, but must be true to the period.

Chassis/Drive configuration
Chassis: Any plastic or printed chassis. May be stiffened/reinforced.
Motor:
ClassA: Open to all commercially available, unmodified motors.
Class B: Open to all commercially available, unmodified motors rated at or below 18k rpm
Guide/braid/motor leads: open
Gearing: open
Axles, front/rear: open
Ballast permitted, no weight limit imposed.
Ground clearance: Must not damage track, copper tape or timing system.

Wheels/Tires:
Wheels to be a good faith effort to depict wheels on prototype vehicles. Wheels/tires must* not protrude beyond wheel arches as viewed from above. (If prototype car had wheels protruding beyond arches, documentation must be provided to scrutineer, and must be to scale) Wheel inserts or wheels with scale detail are required. Maximum tire with front and rear (at bulge)
Class A: 9mm and above
Class B less than 9mm)
Tire diameter should be scale to prototype within 10% after truing. Rubber or urethane tires allowed. Coating of front tires with nail varnish or C/A, etc. is allowed.
SILICONE TIRES PROHIBITED.

Randy,

I can't wait to see your cars.  The Mustang sounds very cool in the Ecurie livery.

I still think the 914 will be the quickest but I like the mix of other cars.

Marty

I found some front lights at Pendleslot made by PCS as well as TeamSlot.  The pictures show the TeamSlot version where the lights are in a bonnet/grill mounted version and the PCS loose mounted versions are available in pairs.

[postquote quote=17183]

It might be best for encouraging participation and variety toped up the motor category
Steve at SCC was wiling to part with 10 motors, total, and as you say, determining the mix would be a moving target.

Randy, RE: concours, I think the idea of requiring only one race for eligibility is a good one.
If your scratch or kit bash car participated, it is eligible

RE: lights. The photo of the Z Marty sent me looks like it has 5 inch rally lights (assuming the sealed beam headlights are 7 inch) That would make for 5.5mm lights. Are there any other sizes, I should be considering making up?

[postquote quote=17164]
If Marc gets a deal with Slot Car Corner on the Predators, then we need to order early (X date in Jan?) and everyone "in on the deal" should order what they need from Marc, so he does not have to cast-the-dice to determine how many FF, FC130, FK180 motors are needed (not a time or cost-effective approach :(
RACER
Brand/Model/Livery/Team/#/Year
MOTOR TYPE (FF, FC130, FK180)
RPM
QTY Needed
I also recommend we do Not randomly state motor requirements in a series of posts. On a certain date Marc could text/email us (or collect in a specific meeting) and create a single table from which to order from SCC. Otherwise there is a risk someone's requirements will be missed or mis-interpreted and then the fireworks begin :(
Ditto for wheels and tyres, if we later consider a mass-order approach on those (say to get a deal on CB Design wheels).

I think the myriad of options and hence grouping of regulations, makes a two-class system viable.  Series standings would be according to the classes.
Since we are only counting lowest ET per 40-lap heats, that simplifies the Points counting.
Since we are also doing single car heats, there is not an issue of competing directly against a different class.
To start the series, we have the Concours, and points assigned (These could be held in secret by Marc/SM until the series end). However, this would prevent late (mid) entry of cars (for the Concours), assuming the Concours would require all cars present so they can be ranked.
Then, per round, a car is registered in the class (which cannot change) and points are allocated according to Place within the class.

I am more and more convinced we should have two classes of cars based on some "R1" group like 3d chassis/wide stance/wide tires/low body and "R2" group with stock chassis/narrow stance/narrow tires/high body.  That would allow an all out ASCC 3D style assault on the rally and a more scale car race.  My Mini would race R2with almost stock size components, and my Porsche could be my second car with R1 wide components.  The real full size rally championships have had motor divisions, but I would let the slot car motor be open.  (and that is what I learned at the UT Law School dispute resolution (mediation) classes the City sent me to) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_R

If we go with Predator motors I need a sidewinder for the Mustang, a long can for the Porsche, and a slim long ff for the mini.

I will be making up some rally lights for folks to use on their builds (thanks for the suggestion, Mark)

I could make up solid bits that you paint oand stick on, or I could make lights with clear vac-form lenses that require some assembly.

[attachment file="17160"]

We would need to find a wheel/tire that will work for a Mini as well as a 911. Of course we could mandate the mini wheels/tires for every car, I suppose.

Difference between the Fly Porsche 911 and the Monogram Porsche 904.  There are not only big differences in the width of the cars, there are big differences in the width of the stock tires.  Having said that, you can get a 3D chassis for the Monogram Porsche 904 that will allow you to use hubless 10mm width wheels and tires.  

I think the best way to avoid the tire and car width issue is to mandate a tire width.  Find a tire-wheel combination that works and mandate that.  You can also adjust the rear track on most cars to bring them all very close to the same rear width.  The wider bodies will look really funny with the wheels pushed all the way in but that is a way to level the playing field.

I prefer to limit the cars by having mandatory parts requirements more than a random calculation to level the performance of cars.

Marc - you are the expert with these smaller "build" cars and are better equipped than the rest of us to suggest a specific wheel/tire make, model and size.  Throw something out and let's see how it works.

[postquote quote=17138]
See post Post 17112

There is also:  BRM S-117, shore-30-22mm-Dia x 9mm-Width
/* not sure how available they are */

plus .. across the pond PSR may have many options to support their Penelope Pitlane kits.

I have some Slot.It 1.5mm pinions if somebody needs them. Do not use Policar pinions, they are a different pitch.

[quote quote=17137]1.5mm ID Pinions are available but can be tricky to find.[/quote]

A little tricky but hot nearly as tricky to get as some of the tires we have been required to run :)

TWO-CENTS

INSERTS required *only if* an alloy wheel does Not already appear realistic and period correct.  CB Design and similar wheels, with Holes only (i.e. spokes r OK, and smoothies with Lug Nuts) are not allowed (i.e. if they are designed for inserts, inserts are required).

TIRES  6, 8, 9mm width  - basically the OEM (out of box) size or very close and within the wheel wells.    ?? Do the 914s have 10mm Width tires?

MOTORS Need to be Racer specific so we should be sending Marc the spec for the motor:
* CAN/TYPE: FF ('F1' Slimcan; FF-050); S-Can (Mabuchi style "Short-Can"; FC-130); Long-Can (a.k.a. 'boxers'; FK-180)
* SHAFT SPEED:  xx,000 rpms  (18,000 or less, regardless what your original motor was)

Remember: Most FF motors have a 1.5mm shaft-Diameter (OD) and hence cannot use the same Slot.IT and NSR pinions used for the MX16 Orange-end-bell and other S-can and long-can motors.  1.5mm ID Pinions are available but can be tricky to find. https://slotcarcorner.com/collections/pinion-gears-for-1-5mm-motor-shaft

Adapter shafts are also available, but at this moment I do not have a link to a vendor.

Noted about inserts. I will check the Tourist Trophy rules and see how Russ put it.

I have talked to Steve at Slot Car Corner. Is interested in a sponsorship. and supplying 10 (17.5k to 18k) motors. We will need to decide how to divide that 10 among:

Slimline

S-Can

Long Can

The Mini Cooper is ready to go tire wise except for painting two inserts.

Wheel inserts should not be required as our SRC Porsche 914's have fancy wheels that are one piece Fuchs.  I also plan to use DC Wheels that are one piece and look like the wheels that used to come on real Mustangs, commonly called "steelies" with lug nuts and all.  Not the modern 5 spoke one piece wheels.

Are we getting sponsorship from Predator or just trying to restrict it to Predator even if the car comes with another brand at 18k or less?  I could do without the Predator requirement and just meet the rpm target.

The 8mm tire target is tough since my SRC 914 has fancy wheels that have wider tires.  I'm going to keep working on the 8mm limit.  Maybe we should have two classes: 8mm and over 8mm with the 1970-71.

Here is a second draft of rules after some input, and edited to be more concise. There is an asterisk after some contentious items.

Monte Carly Rally Revival
Rules second draft

To be held on ASCC Rally track
One of the aims of this series is to see a variety of cars and approaches.

Cars eligible:
Any car that ran the Monte between 1961, and 1971 Entrants should have some info and documentation on this. Cars should be a reasonable 1/32 depiction of the prototype.

Multiple entries are permitted, but each entry will require a unique driver persona for the scoring software.

Model configuration:
Any hard plastic injection molded or resin cast 1/32model. (No vacuum formed shells) RTR slot cars /shells are allowed, but must run spec motor, and are not eligible for Concours.Cars must have interior tray (Vac form permitted) and figures for driver (with steering wheel) and navigator. Fantasy liveries allowed, but must be true to the period.

Chassis/Drive configuration
Chassis: Any plastic or printed chassis. May be stiffened/reinforced.
Motor: any unmodified PREDATOR motor rated at or below 18k rpm
Guide/braid/motor leads: open
Gearing: open
Axles, front/rear: open
Ballast permitted, no weight limit imposed.
Ground clearance: Must not damage track, copper tape or timing system.

Wheels/Tires:
Wheels to be a good faith effort to depict wheels on prototype vehicles. Wheels/tires must* not protrude beyond wheel arches as viewed from above. (If prototype car had wheels protruding beyond arches, documentation must be provided to scrutineer, and must be to scale) Wheel inserts are required. Maximum tire with front and rear (at bulge) 8mm•. Tire diameter should be scale to prototype within 10% after truing. Rubber or urethane tires allowed. Coating of front tires with nail varnish or C/A, etc. is allowed.
SILICONE TIRES PROHIBITED.

Scoring
A series of 6* stages will be held on the ASCC rally track.
Each stage will carry X points per finishing place
An Index of Performance (under review) will be applied after applicable info is gathered, and will carry X points per (adjusted) finishing place

Both posts totals will carry forward toward final score*

Concours to be judged by third party if possible. Points will apply to final score.

TA - you were not part of the club the last time we tried super skinny tires, (e.g the 2014 Trasn-Am).  In that case the spec was BRM S-117, shore-30-22mm-Dia x 9mm-Width.  Results were brutal, altho to be fair those cars were generally Heavy.

I favor having "open" tires with a max width of 10mm; contingent on them fitting under the wheel-well Lip/skirt; and they need to look reasonably "scale" and period-correct for the car.

If that means your cars need 6mm wide tires; Goferit!  If that means 10mm tires look appropriate and fit in the wells on John's car - fantastic.

IMHO the term "Reasonably" should be used with lots of judgement; the more "rigid" we get on this series with specs, the more we deviate away from its theme of "a builders series" and a series where "Concours d'Elegance" and innovation are weighted higher than most other criteria for qualifications.

Another interesting source of body shells.  Entz Racing Components on ebay.  Many euro and American including a 1969 Corvair like my 1967 real car.  Require full scratch building of car since only the body shell is 3d printed.

I need dashboard gauges for my Mustang and only found 1/32 fighter plane decals.  Are those the good thing for car interiors, or is there a real car gouge source I missed?

And so we have the 3d chassis conundrum where there is room for wide tires like we use on the modern big track.  I vote 6mm unless 8mm looks period correct.  Just the direction I am taking.

TYRE WIDTH - IMHO -

• Max Width limit to 10mm;  8mm preferred .. but    > >
• Scrutineering Criteria = must not exceed the wheel well/skirt/lip (by 0.5mm)
  • v.s.  'Visible from Above' which can be subjective and does not really fulfill the true objective of the Rule which is basically - don't use F1 width tires and wheels sticking out of a sedan;

• • i.e. if it looks like a Drift car the tires are too-wide.

• • However, if a *Sliver* of black appears, DQing the tires is a little heavy-handed ...

F30s - SHAVED TO 8mm - probably not possible, the internal RIB channel inside the tire is 5mm wide, leaving 1.5mm on each side.
John is a crafty guy so maybe that *IS* possible ....

Some Tire and Wheel Ideas:
http://slot.it/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/A-parte-SLOT.IT_2020-_Slot_IT-POLICAR-accessories-REV-18-02-2020-OK-WEB.pdf

REAR TIRES
Slot.IT PT1088-C1 (8mm wide, 16.8 Dia/Tall; C1 compound)

https://www.nsrslot.it/assets/download/NSR%20catalogo%202021_web.pdf
NSR 8w X 17od Supergrip (shore-28?) NSR-5204; Ultragrip (shore-22?) NSR-5205
NSR 8w X 18od Supergrip NSR-5227; Ultra 5228
NSR 8w X 19.5od Supergrip NSR-5248; Ultra 5249
** Ultragrips ??may?? be Too-sticky for the Rally (not enough drift)

REAR WHEELS
Slot.IT W15808225A/WH1050-AL (8mm wide, 15.8 Rim Dia/Tall) Alloy/alum; 2.5mm Hub)
Slot.IT W15808215A/PA24-ALS (8mm wide, 15.8 Rim Dia/Tall) Alloy/alum; 1.5mm Hub)
Slot.IT W16508215A/PA43-ALS (8mm wide, 16.5 Rim Dia/Tall) Alloy/alum; 1.5mm Hub)
Slot.IT W17308215A/WH1110-AL (8mm wide, 17.3 Rim Dia/Tall) Alloy/alum; 1.5mm Hub)
Slot.IT W17308225A/WH1048-AL (8mm wide, 17.3 ​Rim Dia/Tall) Alloy/alum; 2.5mm Hub)

FRONT WHEELS
Slot.IT W14308015A/PA33-ALS (8mm wide, 14.3 Rim Dia/Tall) Alloy/alum; 1.5mm Hub)

FRONT TIRES
Slot.IT PT19/1096 (8mm wide, 14.2 Dia/Tall; Z1 ZERO-GRIP compound)

John was wanting to use F30 tires. Can they be shaved down to 8mm reasonably easily.

I can see no reason why front axle treatment should not be wide open.
A good opportunity to see what works.

I'm ok with 8mm wheels and tires if they look right.  Not so keen on brass chassis unless the car is a resin body with a thin brass chassis like Penelope Pitlane.   Please include independent rotating fron wheels because my Scalextric Austin Mini Cooper comes that way.  There is not room up front for an axle where the guide is up front.  Actually I don't mind letting independent rotating front wheels on any car.  (A famous 917 cheat I purchased has secret independent front wheel.)  I like those cars you found and included.

For me, personally, spec events are much more difficult, as there is so little wiggle room.

I'm a pretty poor driver, so I look for other opportunities to perform.

On tires: Every fiber of my being wants to keep the width to 8mm max, to keep this a scale series, but I don't want to chase people away.

Fair enough. Just thinking out loud.

I think a metal chassis would potentially have a big advantage in keeping the weight of the car as low as possible and give the car an advantage with added stability.  I might be missing something here about the availability and ease of use of a metal chassis but I would be concerned there would only be a few members that would want to put the work into finding the right one and learning how to set it up.

I am worried about making the rules too difficult for members to participate.  It's already challenging for some members to prepare a spec car much less a builders car.  I think it would add another layer of difficulty that might push members away from running the series.  One of the key factors to consider in running any series is the level of participation.  If only half the club participates then it's not a great series to run.  The easier we can make things for members the better it will be for the club as a whole.

[postquote quote=17087]

Know anyone with an Elegoo Saturn? My printer is not quite big enough for 1/32 bodies, unless I print them almost vertical, which can lead to problems.

for 10 Euro, I'm considering giving it a try. Gotta have a Saab!

Saab 96 printable